I don't like the book "How To Think And Grow Rich".
The way the author writes about himself and how this book has to be read. That one should found bible classes that read and examine this book.

He wants to write a bible. Something that lunatics tend to do (e. g. Nietzsche)

The author jerked himself so hard that I stopped reading even before the content started.
Idk. Maybe there was no content to begin with.

@saxnot I think you didn't miss much. :-)

@artsyhonker have you read it?

@saxnot No; I've skimmed some of Napoleon Hill's 1937 book, "Think and Grow Rich" (no "How to" in the title), and it sounds like the same genre.

@saxnot It's always tempting to believe that wealth or success or good health are entirely within our own control and not also dependent on random factors (basically, luck). Books peddling those beliefs tend to sell very well.

Then when we see someone who is poor or unsuccessful or sick, we can tell ourselves it's really their fault, because they didn't do the right things; not because of external factors beyond their control. >>

@saxnot
And that has two consequences:

1) We don't feel guilty or helpless about our unwillingness or inability to help people who need it

2) We feel we are safe from such misfortune ourselves.

It's a pernicious trap.

@artsyhonker yeah you're absolutely right.

Disclosure: I'm pretty deep into the "I can control it" thinking. I believe that I can modify myself, my beliefs, my habits, my job, … etc. as I wish as long as I reach out, make my own luck, build and publicise it. Don't expect to change my mind. This belief is textified in a small manifest I wrote for myself.

You're right that this thinking might lead to more unfairness and that life most probably is a gamble>>

@artsyhonker I believe a lie of a capitalistic system, you know. But it's not money I sought after.

Of course, money is a tool. A very useful tool.
But I still think that we as society are better off if we increase taxes and try to even out the imbalance between rich and poor. I think the scandinavian countries are much better at this than we are (@thor?).

Ancient USA had a 99 % tax if you made more than a million.

@thor (direct message) i will try to take care, not to mention you in the following discussion.

You were added without your consent. If this discussion interest you, just pop in and we'll include you into future messages.

@saxnot It's not all down to luck, nor is it all down to aptitude. We've all heard stories of lottery winners who foolishly squander their winnings. That's what you call a wasted opportunity. We've also heard stories of people who do all the right things and still lose all their money. That's what you call bad luck. What you don't hear about are all the people who stay low and make boring but profitable choices.

@saxnot Life is part a game of chance, part a game of skill. There are moves you can make to increase your chance of winning, or at least decrease your chance of losing everything.

The biggest obstacle to social mobility is that we leave the teaching of wise life choices and networking to parents, because it's not in the interest of the powerful to teach the general populace anything about social mobility.

@thor @artsyhonker teachers too.

I'd say both my parents and my teachers aren't exactly the best guides, teachers or coaches.

There have been a few very good guides in my lifes. Some teachers that go the extra mile - that really reach out to pupils even when they're not assigned to me.

My school didn't attract talent. How we educate the youth is among the biggest social problems here in germany and probably, around the world.

@saxnot @artsyhonker In general, you're not going to learn how to move upwards by talking to people who haven't moved upwards. One obstacle to overcome is that certain abilities and interests aren't good for making money (or finding friendship or love, or whatever your definition of success is). A love for soap operas or drinking alcohol won't get you far in life, for example.

@artsyhonker @saxnot If you aren't motivated to focus on the sorts of activities that could potentially lead to a better life, you have a problem. This leads me to think that not all people were put on this earth to make it far. Their main function ends up being to work for other people who *are* self-realising, through no fault of either party.

@saxnot @artsyhonker I suppose this is what you could call a systemic issue, but it's one that seems to emerge in any society where there is enough surplus for at least some of the population to spend time on other things than acquiring food and shelter, suggesting to me that, for better or for worse, it's human nature. Does every human deserve a good life? There's no objective answer to that, only different opinions.

@thor @artsyhonker it's clear that you're a tad older than artsyhonker and me.

You speak from the perspective of someone who already has a lavish present and future (Sei dir gegönnt ; sorry I'm lacking the english and thor speaks german).
I think this discussion will greatly benefit from your perspective.

@thor @artsyhonker Have I understood your notion off:
↪people are born with differences
↪these differences are an influent factor in our success
↪some goals / practices have less worth in pursuing (e. g. drinking alcohol)
↪these virtues also are an influential factor in our success
↪with this, some people "deserve it" to be rich/poor/…

@thor @artsyhonker i'm paraphrasing here since this is exactly orthogonal to the leftish-tainted discussion that artsy and me had before, thus offering a lot of conflict potential (good or bad ; depending on the not yet written toots)

@thor @saxnot
I don't think luck is the only factor in success; I just think it's a large one.

I don't know that I'd like to try and quantify how much is down to luck and how much is effort or wise actions. It probably varies from person to person.

(Also, out of curiosity: how old do you think I am, and why?)

@artsyhonker @thor I think you're in your (late) 20s.
I'm bad at guessing ages.

I'm m/19/germany

You're not part of my age group but I guess we both grew up in a world without an iron curtain.

idk how old thor is. Maybe 40s or 50s. Could be anything really. I guess he's above 40.

@artsyhonker @thor if the amount of luck required varies between people then this very clearly a lucks game and one could assume the highest amount of required luck to be found inside a single successful individual to be true for everyone.

As far as I see the current system
If you're born poor you'll die poor
If you're born privileged you'll die privileged.
Any deviation is induced by [various factors]

mostly luck.

@artsyhonker @thor it's an unfair system. And I say that as someone comfortable within the top ten percent.

It's not that just poor people think this is unfair. Inequality hurts everyone.

I haven't worked for this. There's no way I could convince anyone that I worked for my private education. And I also disbelieve that my parents are able work that much harder than anyone else.