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Thor, the Norseman has moved!

Software engineers versus other engineers.

· Amaroq · 93 · 80
@thor They’re just honest, airplane safety is intentionally undermined to lower the costs.
@tija @thor Everything in engineering is a tradeoff. You need to be able to ride safely, but you also need to be able to ride.

Over time, hours flown increase, accidents, fatal accidents and fatalities decrease.

https://www.aopa.org/about/general-aviation-statistics/general-aviation-safety-record-current-and-historic

"Hours flown" is a bit deceptive, as modern airplanes are larger. Notice how the fatalities/(fatal accidents) increases over time, with fatal accidents still decreasing in absolute numbers.
... with fatalities still decreasing in absolute numbers, even.
@notclacke @thor
> Everything in engineering is a tradeoff.

Capitalism ho.
@tija @thor At least I wasn't the one pointing out the strong connection between capitalism and practical reality this time.
@notclacke @thor You can count on my inner utopian socialist at any time.
[Shisukon] Mikakunin de Shinkou…

@thor i suppose this is partly because other fields of engineering strongly rely on mathematical models, whereas computer engineering usually is just somebody's gut feeling

@thor this. this a million times.

@ddipaola @newt @tija It's *possible* to write resillient software. They routinely do so in the aerospace industry... but the way they do it, at least for autopilots, is to have three separately developed pieces of software developed according to a shared specification running on three pieces of hardware in the actual aircraft, and a consensus system that picks which system to trust.

@tija @newt @ddipaola Also, they hire top talent, and adhere to a strict manual of best practices, and have code reviews by third parties on top of that.

@ddipaola @newt @tija If the entire industry followed that template, then...

1. 75% of developers would be out of a job.

2. Software projects would take 10 times longer.

3. The world would be running on old but very solid software.

@thor I would say more than 75% of developers. Most developers don't understand what they are working with!

@thor @newt @ddipaola The world, that produces developers faster, than it educates them, would do better without them.

@squeakypancakes @thor @tija @ddipaola debian stable isn't stable in the sense that it has no bugs. Stability here means that API and features don't change. In fact, I've seen plenty of bugs in debian stable so far.

@newt @thor @tija @ddipaola
There are but its a lot less than other distros.

@squeakypancakes @thor @tija @ddipaola is there a proof to this? Because bugs are fixed upstream, and it usually takes time for debian team to backport the fixes. Bugs don't magically disappear if the sources hang on debian servers for a while.

Furthermore, debian folks sometimes introduce major issues of their own. I still jiggle at their major fuckup 10 years ago when debian had insecure ssh keys due to their patch to openssl.

@thor @ddipaola @newt Software alone – even if it really is well-written and reviewed – doesn’t guarantee safety.
boeing engineer.png

@thor @tija @newt @ddipaola all this has a cost. It is rarely justified to pay the price of building software like you do on airplane.

@thor "Make sure to use fire-resistant gloves, and stand back."

@thor that's because we "move fast and break things". I think we should stop.

@thor So accurate, though if computers had the same rate of innovation as airframe or building engineering, we'd all still be programming by flipping switches on the computer's faceplate.

@thor seriously tho, computerized voting is the worst thing ever.

@thor it's not because it's software. nevada has rigorous standards for auditability and accountability, chain of custody, tamper-proofing in gambling machines.
@moonman @thor Reminds me of a joke I once heard: engineer, MBA & CS were in a car that barely came to a stop safely down a hill.  Engineer tries to figure out what broke. MBA says to hire someone to fix it. CS guy says, "let's push it back up the hill & try it again."
@js290 @thor people like to say there's two good computer science jokes and everybody's heard it, but there are a bunch of good ones!
@moonman @thor @js290 Well. let's hear 'em.
@moonman @thor Las Vegas just schooled San Jose.

@thor the difference being, that if the first two fail, everybody knows about it, if the second one does, no one actually might, which is what makes it so dangerous.