So, apparently, paid maternity leave is considered "women's liberation" by Norwegian feminists.
Having children is optional. Maternity leave is a perk, not an essential right. There was never a time in history when women could have children without giving things up. If maternity leave liberates women, so does getting rich. Yes, wealth technically offers liberty, but that's not what we usually mean when we talk about liberty. In other words, liberty is a negative right and maternity leave isn't.
@thor unless you want to cut people who bear children out of your work force entirely, maternity leave is absolutely an essential right and not a perk. And when in the past, employers have had the right to fire new mothers for daring have anything other than a work life while men have had both without consequence, maternity leave is nothing if not liberation.
@beezyal 1/ This plays into the wider issue of whether keeping your job if you aren't doing it is a right. It mostly isn't, but we typically grant exceptions in the case of illness, since it can't be helped. Preventing pregnancy is easily preventable unless you are a slave to your biology. Should it really become someone else's problem if you go and get pregnant? Should it have no consequences to you?
@beezyal 2/ As for benefits and rights granted to people who want to start a family, I always viewed starting a family as a privilege that you acquire by getting yourself into a position where you're able to find a partner and support said family, not a right that should be enshrined in law. If you have children before you're able to support them, that's irresponsible behaviour. People should be held accountable for their deliberate actions.
@beezyal 3/3 For me, accountability outweighs having childbearing people in the workforce.
@beezyal Having said that, I'm sure I'd be happy to have these benefits if I did start a family. Norway has paternity leave, so I'd benefit as a man too. However, I would still consider it a privilege that I'm enjoying, not a right.
@thor I would say it's an important privilege, one that is usually properly funded and actually builds a stronger society; there are so few countries without paid maternity leave that it's hard to measure what it HAS done, so I guess one must look at variances. Taxes pay for things that we sometimes don't agree with, but in a capitalist society, it's how we've chosen to patch holes the private sector leaves open.
@sdm There is a big presumption behind all of this: The notion that a job is something that you're entitled to keep, and not just the rendering of services in return for money. In some respects, your right to keep your job is like the supermarket's right to keep you as a customer. There is no such right, of course, because everyone understands that this would be absurd.
@sdm It only makes sense because most people on this planet aren't capable business people, creating an uneven balance of power between those who are capable and those who are not, forcing us to put wage workers at an artificial advantage in order to even the score. It may produce the optimum result for society at large, but it definitely isn't equal treatment.
@sdm My point of view is that I don't like mixed economies. Capitalism and socialism both fail at rewarding the right people.
Capitalism because it rewards hustling and random luck, not talent or ability. Socialism because it doesn't really offer rewards, only compensation.
@thor not sure about Norway, but in most countries this isn't a women's only privilege, i.e. paternity leave is a thing. This doesn't even have anything to do with feminism.
@newt I think many feminists would object rather loudly to your claim that parental leave is unrelated to feminism, since it has its origins in feminists fighting for the right to maternity leave, so women could keep their jobs while having babies. Paternity leave was a later concession made for the sake of balance, and it isn't implemented in as many jurisdictions. Paternity leave only exists because maternity leave exists because feminism exists.
@newt I mean, I'm hearing Norwegian women describe maternity leave as a matter of women's liberation, and I believe that's a common attitude. Paternity leave is an addition to that, and many men in Norway don't make use of it, so they're changing the rules in order to force the men to take out paternity leave now, because they're not doing it voluntarily.
2/ This isn't to say that I'm against maternity leave. I just object to calling it liberation, because liberty that comes at someone else's expense (employers and taxpayers in this case) isn't liberty, it's privilege. Maternity leave is a privilege that women in this country have. Let's see feminists try to sell their ideology while having to use the word "privilege" in all the appropriate places.