@thor @artsyhonker this toot was written twice. I accidentally "Cut" a at-sign instead of pasting it. Ugh.

Computers...

@saxnot @artsyhonker I think Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a useful tool for that. In societies that aren't in war, famine or disaster, there's typically a desire for securing access to food and shelter. After that? A combination of seeking friendship, love, self-realisation and status. In a money-fuelled society, acquiring money naturally becomes a part of this effort.

@thor @artsyhonker tbh I'm not sure how much skill is involved in the game of life.

I like the model of Maslow. It's outdated and brutish. The original revision was very sex-centric. Yet I think it's a good model for specific situations. You names third world countries which is a very good example since these countries can use it to plan infrastructure: Bakerys before Theaters.

@thor @artsyhonker For simplicity of the discussion might assume that here (the people who are rich enough to participante in online discussions about success) everyone needs to fill the top of the pyramid ("Self-actualization" according to the english wikipedia). This goal, this Raison d'être, might not be known. I don't know mine. And we can assume that the path isn't clear.
Does this capture the center point of this debate?

@thor @artsyhonker yeah, i copy and pasted "Raison d'être" because i can never remember where the french put their apostrophes.

It's sufficient to define
Raison d'être := ultimate life goal ; reason to be

@saxnot @artsyhonker In general, you're not going to learn how to move upwards by talking to people who haven't moved upwards. One obstacle to overcome is that certain abilities and interests aren't good for making money (or finding friendship or love, or whatever your definition of success is). A love for soap operas or drinking alcohol won't get you far in life, for example.

@artsyhonker @saxnot If you aren't motivated to focus on the sorts of activities that could potentially lead to a better life, you have a problem. This leads me to think that not all people were put on this earth to make it far. Their main function ends up being to work for other people who *are* self-realising, through no fault of either party.

@saxnot @artsyhonker I suppose this is what you could call a systemic issue, but it's one that seems to emerge in any society where there is enough surplus for at least some of the population to spend time on other things than acquiring food and shelter, suggesting to me that, for better or for worse, it's human nature. Does every human deserve a good life? There's no objective answer to that, only different opinions.

@thor @artsyhonker it's clear that you're a tad older than artsyhonker and me.

You speak from the perspective of someone who already has a lavish present and future (Sei dir gegönnt ; sorry I'm lacking the english and thor speaks german).
I think this discussion will greatly benefit from your perspective.

@thor @artsyhonker Have I understood your notion off:
↪people are born with differences
↪these differences are an influent factor in our success
↪some goals / practices have less worth in pursuing (e. g. drinking alcohol)
↪these virtues also are an influential factor in our success
↪with this, some people "deserve it" to be rich/poor/…

@thor @artsyhonker i'm paraphrasing here since this is exactly orthogonal to the leftish-tainted discussion that artsy and me had before, thus offering a lot of conflict potential (good or bad ; depending on the not yet written toots)

@thor @saxnot
I don't think luck is the only factor in success; I just think it's a large one.

I don't know that I'd like to try and quantify how much is down to luck and how much is effort or wise actions. It probably varies from person to person.

(Also, out of curiosity: how old do you think I am, and why?)

@artsyhonker @thor I think you're in your (late) 20s.
I'm bad at guessing ages.

I'm m/19/germany

You're not part of my age group but I guess we both grew up in a world without an iron curtain.

idk how old thor is. Maybe 40s or 50s. Could be anything really. I guess he's above 40.

@artsyhonker @thor if the amount of luck required varies between people then this very clearly a lucks game and one could assume the highest amount of required luck to be found inside a single successful individual to be true for everyone.

As far as I see the current system
If you're born poor you'll die poor
If you're born privileged you'll die privileged.
Any deviation is induced by [various factors]

mostly luck.

@artsyhonker @thor it's an unfair system. And I say that as someone comfortable within the top ten percent.

It's not that just poor people think this is unfair. Inequality hurts everyone.

I haven't worked for this. There's no way I could convince anyone that I worked for my private education. And I also disbelieve that my parents are able work that much harder than anyone else.

@saxnot @artsyhonker I'm 35, but I wouldn't say my finances are very secure. Whenever I attempt to work a 9-to-5 job, I feel unhappy with it, and end up quitting and taking contracting work instead, because it has fewer attachments. Unfortunately, it also has less security. I'm always hunting for my next source of income and hoping that my savings won't run out.

@artsyhonker @saxnot I don't care for being a worker drone. Every CEO is the same. They see what I'm capable of and they want to "own" me by hiring me, but I resist that. I rather wish I had some capital. I wouldn't spend a cent of it on luxuries. I'd take out a modest wage and invest the rest in business ventures, financial instruments, real estate and so on, and I'd be quite happy to basically have the management of such businesses and assets as my day to day job.

@thor @artsyhonker huh, you're younger than artsyhonker. I did not expect that.

Sad to hear your struggle with our current system.
IMHO Germany looks to much in the direction of the USA. Some powerful politicians think that the hypercapitalism as seen in the USA is worth pursuing.
I don't know if this is true for other european countries. I just know that many people don't get the chance they deserve.

@saxnot @artsyhonker Artsyhonker is over 35? Doesn't look like that from the avatar...

@saxnot @thor Appearances can be deceptive, and women in my family age well.

@thor @artsyhonker idk. Maybe blue hair are associated with youth.

He said he's 37. To me he makes the impression of an honest fellow.
I assume lifestyle and community make a lot of difference.

Once again I'm the youngest at the table. Huh.
People always assume me to be older.
One day that will change (naïvely ignoring bus factor here).

@thor @saxnot I'll be 38 in October.

:-)

@artsyhonker @thor Oops :)

@thor @artsyhonker welp. This discussion sadly stalled.

@saxnot @artsyhonker I pose what one deserves as an open question. I don't conclude that anyone deserves this or that. It would seem that most legal systems have landed on people deserving to incur certain consequences for their actions, yet, in many of the same jurisdictions, one doesn't apply this argument to poverty, and benefits are paid. The system can't make up its mind.

@thor @artsyhonker intend is important in western jurdiscation. It's the diffderence between murder and manslaughter.

Nobody intends to be poor.
It's expensive af to be poor.

@saxnot @artsyhonker But what is intent? Intent doesn't come out of nowhere. If you believe in determinism, intent is a result of your genes and your past/current environment. If intending to commit a crime is a sign of poor judgment or a poor moral compass, the ultimate cause would be those things. It's like punishing the final domino for falling over, while ignoring the chain of events that lead to it.

@artsyhonker @saxnot After all, no newborn child intends to become a criminal. Studies of prison inmates have found that many of them have various forms of minor brain injuries and disorders. My belief in free will sits on rather unsteady ground. I believe that damage control and rehabilitation is a better approach than prison as punishment. That's Norway's official policy as well, but often only on paper...

@thor @artsyhonker sorry I have to answer later. I really like this discussion so far. Maybe we can spin this into a mailing list and publish the results as a blog post.

idk. it's a topic worth pursuing.

@saxnot @artsyhonker My knowledge of German is very limited. Norwegians are supposed to take German in Middle School or High School. I opted to take it in High School, but I dropped out (for the same reason that I don't enjoy being an office drone) so I never finished my German classes. I'm a bit of a misfit. I have a working mind, but it's picky about what it's willing to work with. It halts if it finds nothing of interest.

@thor @artsyhonker tbh I never got into langs. The more I think about it the more I think to miss out. But this is a feeling that I get because of polish authors and french software writes. School never made me like languages.

I got to chose between latin, spanish and french. I took spanish and I hated ever bit of it. I hated it with passion.
Thinking back I realize it's all about teachers. If I had different t. it would've been different